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Thread: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

  1. #21

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan and John at Chevland View Post
    Ooops - I didn't mean to overstep any mark by using this phrasology. Sorry if I offended.
    LOL @ you. No mark overstepped. I don't even know what part of your post you're referring to either.


    btw. Phraseology. hehe
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel2001
    ...it took me YEARS to remember the ratio of water to rice (2:1) when making rice.

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    AuCaDo Member heeler400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    People I know who use primarily ACDS as working dogs on cattle stations, still add a little bit of this and that, granted mainly from other working breeds.

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    AuCaDo Member Waynescustomleather's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by heeler400 View Post
    People I know who use primarily ACDS as working dogs on cattle stations, still add a little bit of this and that, granted mainly from other working breeds.

    Say it ain't so!!

    I think that happens not only there but also in other parts of the world more then many are aware of or are privey too, and not limited ro ACD's.

    I have question for you guys down in Australia, can a dog get accepted into your registery via any means other then direct decent? I know, I should just google, but I figured I'd ask instead.

    Something that alot of people are unaware of is that there are ways to get crossbreds into the AKC but it is limited to certain breeds and typically include an ability to prove itself from a working standpoint along with meeting the rest of the breed standard requirements.

    Deb

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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    actually, i have been told 1st-hand by a police canine handler that the Dutch Shepherds they use (which are increasingly becoming more popular in American law enforcement) are often mixed with other breeds to get more desired characteristics.

    having never seen a live Dutch Shepherd, i was immensely impressed when i met Officer Vasco, a 7 year old, intact, imported, cross-trained Dutch Shepherd. He was trained in Schutzhund, Search & Rescue, Cadaver Recovery, & Narcotic Detection. & he was a very gentle, friendly dog...to my amazement! (i had mistakenly believed, without any reason as to why, that all Schutzhund trained dogs would be friendly to only their handlers)



    his handler told me that the kennel Officer Vasco was whelped at in Germany had Dogo de Argentino, & Black German Shepherds that they would breed to other Dutch Shepherds if they wanted to improve the next generation's "bite", "recall", "intelligence" or "reactivity to stimuli".

    our breeds are constantly being evolved-simply look at the head of a Bull Terrier from 60 years ago (these pics do exist) & look at the modern one. hell, look at the Pekingneses of yesteryear and the modern monstrosity we see waddle painstakingly across the Westminster green...

    a very good book about the changes in breed appearance, in pursuit of an unobtainable, Platonian ideal of the breed standard, is Best in Show: The World of Show Dogs and Dog Shows (Kennel Club Pro) by Bo Bengtson.
    this book is just amazing-how dog shows began, all the winners of BIS for the main shows (AKC, FICA, & Crufts) nice book.

    just 2 years ago i saw a tiny chihuahua in dystocia (literally "difficult birth") at my clinic. the veterinarian was trying to convince the owner to spay the dam at the time of her cesarean section, & even offered a major discount if he did so. (i believe the c-section & neonatal care was going to be around $1500, but if he let her spay the dam, she would only charge him $800)

    well this guy went ballistic in the lobby of the clinic, telling us how he paid over 2 grand for this chihhuahua-which, quite honestly, looked poorly-bred to me. she had long hair, but was blue-merle colored, like a sheltie. when we tried to explain to him that this was not an acceptable color for chihuahuas, he proceeded to tell us that we where tying to steal his future income from the puppies she would produce! he then told us how he got her from a BREEDER IN ARKANSAS.

    can we all say "puppy mill" together, kids?

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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringtailroxy View Post
    just 2 years ago i saw a tiny chihuahua in dystocia (literally "difficult birth") at my clinic. the veterinarian was trying to convince the owner to spay the dam at the time of her cesarean section, & even offered a major discount if he did so. (i believe the c-section & neonatal care was going to be around $1500, but if he let her spay the dam, she would only charge him $800)

    well this guy went ballistic in the lobby of the clinic, telling us how he paid over 2 grand for this chihhuahua-which, quite honestly, looked poorly-bred to me. she had long hair, but was blue-merle colored, like a sheltie. when we tried to explain to him that this was not an acceptable color for chihuahuas, he proceeded to tell us that we where tying to steal his future income from the puppies she would produce! he then told us how he got her from a BREEDER IN ARKANSAS.

    can we all say "puppy mill" together, kids?
    I repeat, Can we start a fund for a spay/neuter clinic for stupid humans, it would cost the government less in medicare/social sec. fees in later generations and it would hopefully eliminate the vast amount of stupidity in just one generation. Ugh, it's difficult from going completely ballistic some days.

    Beautiful dog by the way.
    J

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  7. #26
    Super Moderator competitivek9s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringtailroxy View Post
    actually, i have been told 1st-hand by a police canine handler that the Dutch Shepherds they use (which are increasingly becoming more popular in American law enforcement) are often mixed with other breeds to get more desired characteristics.
    Actually this isn't just happening with that breed. And while more common in Europe, it happens over here too (more in the states than in Canada). For many working people, particularily military, police, etc.. the breed means almost nothing, it's the working ability of the dog. It is not uncommon, especially in Europe, in their police dogs but also in some "sport" dogs, to see them actually be a mix of Dutchie and Mal, Mal and GSD, GSD and Dutchie, etc. They will "infuse" the different dog or breed in to improve the working qualities depending on what the line needs.
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    Rescue Co-Moderator Beth99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by competitivek9s View Post
    For many working people, particularily military, police, etc.. the breed means almost nothing, it's the working ability of the dog.
    Very true, one of the very respected cattledog breeders here in SoCal was approached by the US border patrol about breeding ACD/Aussie crosses for Patrolling the U.S. Mexico border.

    I would be very interested to hear why they wanted that specific cross for the work they do. Denny was this cross, he was all cattle dog in personality, but was much larger boned and weighed more than a typical cattledog, so maybe they were wanting to put a little size on ACD's.
    Beth and the boys, Darcy & Cody and Princess Hannah
    and Denny & Snuffles waiting at The Bridge

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    AuCaDo Member Waynescustomleather's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beth99 View Post
    Very true, one of the very respected cattledog breeders here in SoCal was approached by the US border patrol about breeding ACD/Aussie crosses for Patrolling the U.S. Mexico border.

    I would be very interested to hear why they wanted that specific cross for the work they do. Denny was this cross, he was all cattle dog in personality, but was much larger boned and weighed more than a typical cattledog, so maybe they were wanting to put a little size on ACD's.

    Hard to say why they thought that they wanted that specific cross. I would be wairy of those that were looking for the ideal candidates just by hunting people that are willing to cross breed the specific breeds vs. closely evaluating the individuals that they are breeding. So many times people will see a super cross bred and think that they will get the same by making the same cross (breed wise not individual), what made the cross work was the combination of the individuals as breed representative, the cross typically will not stand on pedigree or breed names alone.

    An example is the ACD/BC crosses, pups from one cross may be awesome, but take two individuals that work differently then the parents of the first cross you may not even get a fraction of the ability in the resulting pups.
    Great individuals and recognizing how traits work together or in conflict are some of the things that are real important in order to have cross breeding successes. In addition, having a really good understanding of what makes a great individual within each breed and how to work with them is important too.

    Deb

  10. #29
    Rescue Co-Moderator Beth99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    As far as I know the breeder said no to breeding ACD/Aussies.

    There are definitely no guarantees with breeding purebred dogs or breeding mixed breeds. In Denny's litter for example the only thing all 6 puppies had in common was, coloring, size and bone, but body type was different in all three boys. As far as personality goes, the other two males in the litter were more aussie in personality and neither showed much interest in working stock and loved everyone. Denny on the other hand was a great working dog, (I had two different cattle ranchers try to buy him) and Denny was more aloof with people he didn't know.
    Beth and the boys, Darcy & Cody and Princess Hannah
    and Denny & Snuffles waiting at The Bridge

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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    When you look at the genetic possibilities from each breeding, you can see why it's impossible to reproduce exactly the same dog from the same pairs breeding. There are so many possible combinations within the gene pool of the pairs mating, it would be nothing short of a miracle to get even a close match and impossible to get the same match. I learned this a long time ago in horse breeding when I chose "the perfect" stallion for my mare. Learned then, buy what you want don't breed for it.

    In genetics, every time you choose for a trait, you lessen the choice for another trait (gene) selection, so, if you are breeding for workability and that is your 1st choice, bone another, angulation another, skull width another, etc. you are choosing characteristics that naturally make other characteristics less important (by necessity--you can't have all choices as #1). It's a crap-shoot many times when a litter hits the ground re: exactly what you will get. Makes it interesting and sometimes frustrating, as evidenced by many breeder posts. And this is not even taking into consideration all the variables that have been introduced over time from various other breeds to get the cattle dog breed, for example. Only cloning can give the same match and even with that you won't get the same individual since individuals are influenced (and developed) by environment, training, experiences, etc. in their upbringing that can never be exactly duplicated.
    J

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  13. #31

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Waynescustomleather View Post
    I have question for you guys down in Australia, can a dog get accepted into your registery via any means other then direct decent? I know, I should just google, but I figured I'd ask instead.
    I'm not sure of the exact process Deb, but the fellow to contact here is Australia would be Mr Roger Bridgeford. He is a member of the ANKC Breeds Standard Coordinators Group. His e-mail address (as already listed on the ANKC website) is: [email protected] I'd be interested in hearing about the process (if there is one) of being able to register an unregistered dog.

  14. #32
    AuCaDo Member heeler400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Waynescustomleather View Post
    Say it ain't so!!
    I have question for you guys down in Australia, can a dog get accepted into your registery via any means other then direct decent? I know, I should just google, but I figured I'd ask instead.

    Something that alot of people are unaware of is that there are ways to get crossbreds into the AKC but it is limited to certain breeds and typically include an ability to prove itself from a working standpoint along with meeting the rest of the breed standard requirements.

    Deb
    All my dogs except my working bred dog who is on the working sheepdog register are registered with the ANKC because it is our only agility and obedience venue. I have 3 showbred dogs, 1 is on the main register one is on the limited register (agreement with the breeder never to breed from her) both were registered by the breeder, one ACD was never registered within the allowed time so she is on the associate register with ANKC and is therefore not recognised as an ACD despite being a purebred, whose parents were both Australian champions.

    Any crossbred or unregistered purebred dog can be registered on the associate or sporting register with ANKC which means they can compete in any ANKC event except showing for this the dog has to be on the main register with proof of descendency from other registered dogs.

    My working bred dog is from a long line of working registered dogs, but I dont think he wouldnt be eligible for the ANKC main register. A working dog can go on the working register either by proof of descendency or by proof of ability. The working sheepdog register has nothing to do with ANKC.

    Needless to say many station and farmers owners dont care about such things. However some are quite particular about the lines of their working dogs and take a lot of care with them and will frequently source dogs from recognised breeders of working dogs.

  15. #33
    AuCaDo Admin Belgrael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Caroline, do you know about anyone who has working dogs for rehoming over in WA?
    I had an enquiry from someone about whether we could help them find a working dog but didn't know who to contact.
    Di, Bud, Nimble, Pudding, Tricky and Spook (and my Chippy at the Rainbow Bridge )


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    Rescue Co-Ordinator Linda Watkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrael View Post
    Caroline, do you know about anyone who has working dogs for rehoming over in WA?
    I had an enquiry from someone about whether we could help them find a working dog but didn't know who to contact.

    We've got to start clarifying the initials of all of these places. I started to put down CA today for Canada & realized that could cause some confusion; & then I read the above post & started to get excited about sending a dog to Washington, & then looked around & realized it's Western Australia.
    Linda, Rose the Devil Dog and Sam (visit our blog: www.ridenbaugh.com/dogrescue)

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  18. #35
    AuCaDo Member heeler400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrael View Post
    Caroline, do you know about anyone who has working dogs for rehoming over in WA?
    I had an enquiry from someone about whether we could help them find a working dog but didn't know who to contact.
    Are they specifically looking for ACDS? I know of several good kelpies and BCs. I am grabbing one of the kelpies for myself. Several stations I know sometimes have surplus ACD pups that they look to get rid of. Last ones I knew of looked all ACD but mum had an infusion of shorthaired border collie in her breeding, they were giving these pups away. I can make some enquiries if you like.

    I would imagine the station country in Queensland would have working ACDS, sometimes the local stock agents will often know from the companies like Elders, Landmark etc. and they are often advertised in the weekly farming magazines like The land, Countryman and Elders Weekly etc. Just some ideas.

    Unfortunately I think station people rarely bother to rehome dogs they dont need, if you know what I mean.

    I have become a bit of a traitor really. ACDS are my most favourite dogs and I will always have a couple but I have looked to kelpies and BCs for my working dogs as I have fairly placid wiltshires and I like the way they work sheep. Also it is much harder to get suitable working ACDS that havent been bred specifically for scrub cattle over here.

  19. #36

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrael View Post
    Caroline, do you know about anyone who has working dogs for rehoming over in WA?
    I had an enquiry from someone about whether we could help them find a working dog but didn't know who to contact.
    Di - if he's not specifically looking for an ACD - the lady up in Malanda breeds Koolies. They are also great working dogs on sheep and cattle. Let me know if you want her contact details.

  20. #37
    StinkwadMod littleroads's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    We've got to start clarifying the initials of all of these places.
    How about CAN for Canada, and WAu for Western Australia?
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by CattyBossDog View Post
    You're a better spell checker than the forum software.
    Hey, hey totally I'm the worst speller & typo maker there is, thank doG I have spell checker/suggestion on this new windows phone lol or else no one would be able to read my posts lmbo.
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