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Thread: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

  1. #1
    AuCaDo Member
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    Cool Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Dear All,

    This is my first post to the AuCaDo forum and I guess I'm throwing a cat amongst the pigeons with the topic of this post, "Let's get the ACD's and ASTCD's history right!".

    First let me explain the reasons behind my post...
    1) Everything you read on the internet is right. WRONG!
    2) Why is it that everyone seems to be repeating similar information with a slightly different spin?
    3) Back up the history you write about with fact! Documented "scientific" evidence and DNA evidence tells us the history we see repeated time and again is not entirely correct. So what is?
    4) You can't beat a good story. WRONG!

    Well then ... what is the history of the ACD (and ASTCD - being close cousins)?

    There's the stories Robert Kaleski wrote about early on and I am told many years later wrote about again. This is the most popular theory and is repeated on this site. But apart from us having to take Robert's word for it I am told there is not much "factual" evidence to back it up?

    Excuse me if I don't like taking someone's word for it but when the fact's or evidence aren't there then I do find it hard, especially when another theory - which is similar but different - is thrown up at me and is able to be backed up by "scientific" DNA evidence. The history theory I am now talking about is the one proposed and published by Noreen Clark in her fantastic book "A Dog Called Blue".

    I won't write it down here as it is pages long due to her very, very in-depth studies of the claims/writings made by Robert Kaleski and others and the trail of evidence she finds in her many years of thorough research. Suffice to say, not only does Noreen provide DNA evidence that discounts parts of the history regarding the so stated other breeds (Dalmation & Bull Terrier) that were crossed into the ACD but the facts are all laid out bare.

    Unfortunately for us all who love the breed we may never know the "exact" true history of the ACD or ASTCD but I feel Noreen in her book "A Dog Called Blue" has called it like it is and between her writings and that of Robert Kaleski we may have the closest knowledge yet as to where they came from.

    Let us all know your thoughts and please state your factual evidence should you make a claim. I'd be pleasantly surprised if you can.

    Sincerely
    Stan

    Australian Cattle Dogs ... I just love 'em

    www.AustralianCattleDogs.com.au
    www.ADogCalledBlue.com.au

  2. #2

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    I borrowed Noreen's book from a friend a few years ago to read, and yes, she has done a lot of genetics to back up her theories as to what is behind the dogs she has tested.

    However, I doubt that she is the be all and end all of what is behind ALL of the dogs in our breed. I remember feeling at the end of reading her book that her research was incomplete (she admits as much herself in her book). She took a few opportunities in her book to take a cheap shot at others, which I thought at the time, was inappropriate.

    I am not by any means saying that Kaleski has all the facts correct all the time, but I do believe that his recorded history (from his point of view) should not be totally dismissed simply because genetic testing was not available back in the early 1900's when his book was first published. I would not be at all surprised if, while the property owners were trying to develop a suitable working dog, they played around with introducing different breeds into the dog to achieve breeding a dog to suit there long distant herding requirements. It was pretty close to his heart and he did write up the very first Breed Standard for the ACD.

    Whether or not the lines with different dogs (eg bull terrier and dalmation) were carried through to some of the existing ACD's is perhaps questionable, but certainly it would be possible. I don't think Kaleski was the only one in the early to mid 1900's who talked about bull terrier being added to the mix when developing the ACD.

  3. #3
    Rescue Co-Ordinator Linda Watkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    & in the U.S. don't forget Dr. McNiven's dogs which have a few other breeds thrown in but mostly look ACD...sigh.
    Linda, Rose the Devil Dog and Sam (visit our blog: www.ridenbaugh.com/dogrescue)

  4. #4
    AuCaDo Member nuthinflatranch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lordy View Post
    Let us all know your thoughts and please state your factual evidence should you make a claim. I'd be pleasantly surprised if you can.
    OK, Post #1 and you admittedly want to stir the pot. That's what I think.

    Clearly the Book you read makes you superior to me, because I did not read it. That's what I think you think.
    Flame 15 y.o. Red F ACD AKC CGG (at the bridge 6/25/2015)
    Jenny 14 y.o. Blue F McNiven Heeler (at the bridge 7/31/2011)
    Mojo 5 y.o. Blue M ACD AKC

  5. #5

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Hi Stan.

    As you'll no doubt find out very quickly, this place is chock full of ACD people who really know their stuff. I'd like you to read around a little before throwing the cat amongst the pigeons again so you can affirm this yourself. AuCaDo members have learned that people are educated by others telling stories and presenting things to people in a way to involve them in a conversation that moves along lines of grace, dignity and respect. We very rarely educate people by telling them what is right and what is wrong unless it is expressly asked for or invited.

    We are more than a chat board. We have many people from many organisations all around the world, and much like race, creed, colour and religion do on a world scale, opinions vary quite a lot (of course the breed history goes with this). More than that, many people here have become good friends over the time we have existed.

    So, after all that, we WELCOME your knowledge and passion for the breed!


    Oh, let it also be known that the only "be all and end all" here is me so play nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel2001
    ...it took me YEARS to remember the ratio of water to rice (2:1) when making rice.


  6. #6
    AuCaDo Veteran mlanger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    What is an ASTCD?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattle Dog

  8. #8
    AuCaDo Veteran mlanger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by redgirl View Post
    Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattle Dog
    Oh! my silly...Thanks

  9. #9
    AuCaDo Member snowrebby611's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    I was wondering the same thing
    Proud Momma of Bosco (horsie,11yrs) Koda (ACD 2 1/2yrs) and Gavin (baby 9months)

  10. #10
    Super Moderator competitivek9s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by CattyBossDog View Post
    !


    Oh, let it also be known that the only "be all and end all" here is me so play nice.
    There's a reason he's nicknamed "sCarey" But, does Di know about the above quote?? LOL
    Stephanie
    "Blitz" Diventy's Your Ready For This BH CDX RN CGN HIC (ACD)
    "Kwick" OTCh Kwick Van Arek SchH3 AD (Mal)
    "Snap" Xcessive Force Du Loups Du Soliel IPO2, FR Brevet (Mal)
    "Reign" T'Reign Des Barriques FR1
    "Qrazy" Qrazy Van Arek (Mal)
    "Qrash" Qrash Van Arek (Mal)
    "Slice" Liebe's Slice of Sinova (Mal)
    "Addy" Adora DaKine (Mal)
    And waiting at the Bridge:
    "Simba" OTCh Simba BH AD RAE CGN HIC (ACD)
    www.competitivek9s.net

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    AuCaDo Veteran lucystrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lordy View Post
    1) Everything you read on the internet is right. WRONG!
    Wow, I learn something new every day!!!!
    Laura & 2 blues: Lucy (4 yrs) and Banjo (2 years!)

  13. #12
    AuCaDo Member logan774's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Does that make everything in this thread wrong? Or right?
    Logan-The Right Paw Dog for the Boss-lady
    Alithea -I'm a Heeler, Honest!
    Kelly-Meet you at the Bridge, Kelly-Monster...
    Jill-....and you will know me by my trail of dogs.

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    AuCaDo Member snowrebby611's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Lol!!!
    Proud Momma of Bosco (horsie,11yrs) Koda (ACD 2 1/2yrs) and Gavin (baby 9months)

  16. #14
    AuCaDo Member Waynescustomleather's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Lordy Lordy




    I'll share what I think. I think that some people worry too much about what was in the distant past. The parents, grand parents and great grandparents are a way greater concern to me then who crossed what to who way back when the breed was being developed. Besides, the only people that know for certain as to what was crossed in were those that controlled the specific breeding, the rest is just heresay and speculation.

    Deb


  17. #15
    Super Moderator competitivek9s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    I agree with Deb. Especially since the acuracy of "breed" DNA testing has been questioned time and again. And even then, a lack of DNA of a certain breed doesn't necessarily exclude that breed in the development. A lot of it would depend on several factors. For example, which dogs the tested dog has come down from. It's not guarenteed that every ACD goes back from a single pair of dogs. It's always possible that different dogs came from different pairs that may or may not have had certain breeds in the background. There is also a lot we don't know about how the genes of different breeds combine, and so even genetics can't exclude a breed based on the absence of the breed alone. Look at any of the tests for mixed breeds, and they will all say they don't guarentee to show all of the breeds in your dog.
    Stephanie
    "Blitz" Diventy's Your Ready For This BH CDX RN CGN HIC (ACD)
    "Kwick" OTCh Kwick Van Arek SchH3 AD (Mal)
    "Snap" Xcessive Force Du Loups Du Soliel IPO2, FR Brevet (Mal)
    "Reign" T'Reign Des Barriques FR1
    "Qrazy" Qrazy Van Arek (Mal)
    "Qrash" Qrash Van Arek (Mal)
    "Slice" Liebe's Slice of Sinova (Mal)
    "Addy" Adora DaKine (Mal)
    And waiting at the Bridge:
    "Simba" OTCh Simba BH AD RAE CGN HIC (ACD)
    www.competitivek9s.net

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  19. #16
    AuCaDo Veteran havekissedfrogs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by mlanger View Post
    What is an ASTCD?
    I was going to ask that same question, thinking I must be really stupid. So glad that someone else here (who I have a lot of respect for) asked it first!
    You may never know what results come from your action, but if you do nothing, there will be no results. - Gandhi
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    AuCaDo Admin Belgrael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by competitivek9s View Post
    There's a reason he's nicknamed "sCarey" But, does Di know about the above quote?? LOL
    He got me to read his post first so what does that say?
    Di, Bud, Nimble, Pudding, Tricky and Spook (and my Chippy at the Rainbow Bridge )


    Founder/Director - Australian Working Dog Rescue Int (AWDRI)





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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrael View Post
    He got me to read his post first so what does that say?
    When Mama is happy everyone is happy.
    J

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  24. #19

    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrael View Post
    He got me to read his post first so what does that say?
    You're a better spell checker than the forum software.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel2001
    ...it took me YEARS to remember the ratio of water to rice (2:1) when making rice.

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    Default Re: Let's Get The ACD's & ASTCD's History RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by CattyBossDog View Post

    Oh, let it also be known that the only "be all and end all" here is me so play nice.
    Ooops - I didn't mean to overstep any mark by using this phrasology. Sorry if I offended.

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