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KAKZooKpr
07-28-2009, 10:46 PM
Ok, I know many of you are aware of poor Ivy's history of getting charged by Pit Bulls. These incidents have had an obviously negative effect on Ivy and her confidence with new dogs.

We had another even scarier event this evening. I would call this an attack because the dog came at us and managed to make contact with Ivy. He nipped her side. Fortunately, he did not get a grip & did not break skin. I managed to kick him & he backed off as his owner grabbed him. This is yet a different dog from our previous encounters and this dog is far scarier. I do not know which unit the man lives in, but I am determined to find out. The man apologized, but as far as I'm concerned it means little if he can't control his dog. Supposedly the dog broke away from him. I have seen this dog on numerous occasions and I have been worried because of the dog's demeanor towards my dogs even when they are far apart, until tonight the man has always had him secured by leash. I just saw them 5 minutes prior to the attack around the back of my unit with a banch of people hanging around. I walked back around to the front of my unit & was speaking to my next door neighbor & her dog, I also had Katy with me when all of a sudden, this dog comes charging from around the corner & beelines for my dogs. He ignored Katy who went nose to nose with him & he lunged at Ivy and made contact.

Poor Ivy obviously puts out a fear vibe and now I feel we are set back again. She has been doing so well & we were lulled by not having any problems for a few months. Who knows how far tonight will set Ivy back. Last week we completed our second Basic class at PetSmart & this Thursday we start Intermediate, so she will continue to go to public places & be socialized.

I am so mad & upset and I know that breed bans aren't the answer, but I really don't want Pit Bulls anywhere any more. I used to be a big advocate for them, but this year has really turned me off. I will hold myself back from saying anything more at this point, before I say something I'll regret.

Kristina

dingoridge
07-28-2009, 10:57 PM
I am so sorry, Kristina, I can't blame you for your anger at this attack, you were very fortunate to have avoided something extremely serious, perhaps even fatal. I think you need to talk with someone, perhaps the apartment management about these "loose" dogs, what gives that these people can't control their dogs--if you have a dog you can't handle on a leash (or prong collar and leash) then you don't need the dog!!! If the dogs are too powerful for the people owning them, then they don't need to have a dog they can't hang onto with a leash! I'm afraid if this continues, something bad that can't be fixed is going to happen to you and to Ivy.

It seems obvious since the dog went for Ivy and not Katy, Ivy does indeed morph something to them making her a target. It is a good sign for Katy that she didn't back off but that doesn't help your situation with Ivy--and to have two dogs in hand and a loose pit bull charging at you puts you at a distinct disadvantage--you have too much to concentrate on while also trying to protect yourself at the same time. The last time you saw this dog, was he leashed or loose? I think the neighborhood association needs to take this situation up at their next meeting.
J

KAKZooKpr
07-28-2009, 11:04 PM
The dog has always been leashed every time I've seen him. The man is a large man, but he struggles to control this dog. The dog was easily double Ivy's body weight, one of those muscle-bound tank Pits. I don't know if the leash broke or if the leash was pulled from the man's hand. I left a message for our property management company. I am also going to send an e-mail to our HOA President. There needs to be some serious rules, there are far too many Pit Bulls in here now with obviously less than responsible owners. The other problem is that this man has a female Pit & a litter of pups now. Just what the world needs, another litter of puppies.

Kristina

dingoridge
07-28-2009, 11:12 PM
This is what causes banning the breeds--these people need to understand that--not only is it a danger to people and pets in your complex but if this continues then there will be a movement to ban the breed. If this dog kills a pet, this guy has some big problems, if this dog attacks a person, this guy can kiss his butt (and a lot of his money) goodbye. If the dog can't be handle safely, then he has a choice, get rid of him, contain him as a dangerous dog and/or muzzle him all the time. He probably won't like any of these choices so he needs to get a handle on control. (And you need to start carrying protection, like Police issued Pepper spray--not the stuff you can buy over the counter or find out from the police what will stop a dog from coming at you--and use it).
J

KAKZooKpr
07-28-2009, 11:36 PM
Yep, you are right. I don't have pepper spray, I do carry it at work though. I have the "Spray Shield" citronella spray, of course it was inside. Fat lot of good it did me tonight! My fear of pepper spray is that it would have gotten all of us in the blowback.
Too bad I can't just carry my .38 around!

Kristina

dingoridge
07-29-2009, 12:04 AM
My fear of pepper spray is that it would have gotten all of us in the blowback.
Too bad I can't just carry my .38 around!

Kristina

Speaking of "blow back", :lol:.
J

LittleRedDogB&C
07-29-2009, 12:06 AM
On one hand I'm glad Katy has that type of personality but on the other hand it really stinks that Ivy keeps having these types of encounters. I'm sure if they were more positive she would learn a lot more.

as a person who has been attacked by a dog once I can say that banning the breed will never work. I was drug across a backyard by a lab chow. it's not the dog it's the owner. ( though the one that grabbed me when crazy due to inbreeding..... we think) Pits , chows , rotties and various other breeds are considered VERY dangerous when in fact breeds such as the
Dachshunds and Chihuahua are the TOP 2 breed with agression and the Australian cattle dog comes in 5th according to one website ... 1 HIGHER THAN THE PIT!

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/A8A5EF67-BFAC-492A-A2BC-84DF91CDA0EF/

fix the people not the dog!

now I'm not saying that the person with the pit should not just walk around as they don't have a powerful breed or as if there dog didn't do a darn thing wrong. the owner lost control and his dog charged someone else's.walking a pit is much different than walking a LAB or an ACD. maybe someone shound suggest that he muzzles his dog when walking out side and give the dog the chance to get socialized. And you are correct on the fact that this is exactly the reason why breeds get banned. but not all Pitt bulls are dangerous. every dog has the potential to be dangerous.

KAKZooKpr
07-29-2009, 12:36 AM
Yes Morgan you are right. When I worked as a Vet Tech I much preferred to see a Pit Bull over just about any other breed. However, I am completely fed up with the mentality of many Pit Bull or other "macho" breed owners. These people are irresponsible in their breeding, raising & training (or lack of) because they want a tough dog that is dangerous.
The most aggressive dog I ever met was a purebred yellow Lab. He was a seriously frightening dog.

It's easy to say don't blame the breed until you encounter it repeatedly. I am tired of being afraid to walk my dogs in my own neighborhood. The big difference is the amount of damage a pit bull, rottie or chow will do vs a doxie or a chi.

Kristina



On one hand I'm glad Katy has that type of personality but on the other hand it really stinks that Ivy keeps having these types of encounters. I'm sure if they were more positive she would learn a lot more.

as a person who has been attacked by a dog once I can say that banning the breed will never work. I was drug across a backyard by a lab chow. it's not the dog it's the owner. ( though the one that grabbed me when crazy due to inbreeding..... we think) Pits , chows , rotties and various other breeds are considered VERY dangerous when in fact breeds such as the
Dachshunds and Chihuahua are the TOP 2 breed with agression and the Australian cattle dog comes in 5th according to one website ... 1 HIGHER THAN THE PIT!

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/A8A5EF67-BFAC-492A-A2BC-84DF91CDA0EF/

fix the people not the dog!

now I'm not saying that the person with the pit should not just walk around as they don't have a powerful breed or as if there dog didn't do a darn thing wrong. the owner lost control and his dog charged someone else's.walking a pit is much different than walking a LAB or an ACD. maybe someone shound suggest that he muzzles his dog when walking out side and give the dog the chance to get socialized. And you are correct on the fact that this is exactly the reason why breeds get banned. but not all Pitt bulls are dangerous. every dog has the potential to be dangerous.

KAKZooKpr
07-29-2009, 12:43 AM
Speaking of "blow back", :lol:.
J

LOL! :lol:

RickAKAFishslayer
07-29-2009, 12:45 AM
Too bad I can't just carry my .38 around!

Kristina

Why not?

Rick :paw:

havekissedfrogs
07-29-2009, 12:48 AM
fix the people not the dog!
I totally agree with this! As a very wise person once said to me, "the only mean thing about pitbulls are their owners". They are very loyal and strong dogs, and need the right training, just like ACD's. I met someone a while ago who asked me what breed my dog Tallulah was....when I said she is a mixture of cattle dog and pitbull, he said "oh, the 2 worst breeds, in my opinion". Well, he didn't get acquainted with her, which was his loss, because everyone who knows her thinks that she is the sweetest dog ever!
P.S. Kristina, I think you should move somewhere else!

3blues
07-29-2009, 03:06 AM
Kristina I hate this happened yet again but I'm glad you're all OK. :( Let me know if we should come for a visit. We'll walk with you. ;) Doc is good protection. Afterall he's ex Army Ranger & good in a fight. :lol: Seriously glad you're alright though.

Bluerules
07-29-2009, 09:24 AM
Im sorry this happened to you I know what it feels like to have your dog attacked by another dog but in this city it's german shepherds and GS crosses that do all the attacking. I have yet to meet an aggressive pit bull all the ones that I have meet have been nothing but big babys that I've seen get attacked by yorkies. My Lily is a pit bull and she never ever shows aggression. for the first 6 months of her life she lived in total isulation on a deck (in honestly sub zero temps) the owner tried to make her aggressive by holding her head down on the ground next to her brother to try to make them fight she wouldnt, neither would her brother. then she came to live with us and has since put up with all three of my heelers BS and puts up with the little cross breds attacking her at the dog park and her best friends at the park are other pit bulls. then she had parvo and was kept iin a kennel out of town for one week then in the house for another month after that and this was all before she was 8 months old. so that's about 8 months with meeting no other dogs besides mine and I can still take her ANYWHERE in any situation and she's the dog I don't have to worry about at all she's friendly to every single being she's ever meet. But once a border collie that was trying to bully Oscar at the park. Lily would have none of that dog bullying her brother and a few chest slams and that dog didn't come near oscar after that.. I could almost hear oscar chanting "na na na na na na":p: Pit bulls do not know their own strength and when they get happy they get HAPPY that could mean knocking down you or knocking over your other dog. Or sometimes mistaken for aggression because most people are naturaly scared.It's not their fault lol Blame the owners not the breed!!!!! most of the people who get pit bulls WANT an aggressive dog and make it one:(

competitivek9s
07-29-2009, 10:12 AM
I will chime in here because I live where there is a breed ban. And it DOESN"T work first of all, we still have dog attacks on both people and other dogs, we still have underground Pit type breeders and fighting rings (although few of them, but we didn't have tons to begin with). And the worst, we can't walk dogs without fear of seizure. The only rule is that the person making the complaint or seizure has to either a) believe the dog RESEMBLES A PIT OR PIT MIX (I no longer take most of my dogs out in public, as we had a scare when my purebred Mal was called a Pit Bull. Had that been bylaw or any other officer they literally could have seized her and she could have been put down or sold to research labs. I am lucky as I have papers for her with her tattoo number on her and the papers, but even my ACD rescue could be called a Pit and I doubt the PEN number would be considered enough evidence the dog isn't a Pit or Pit Mix, even a vets statement the dog is not has in some cases been deemed as "not enough" because they brought in a vet to say the dog was a Pit) or b) believe the dog poses a threat. Does your dog bark at the mail man? Guess what, if the mail man doesn't like you, all he has to do is call bylaw and report "threatening" behavior and they can walk in and take your dog no questions asked.
So all this fear we live with, and for what? No lessening of dog attacks.

TexasCDLorenz
07-29-2009, 11:03 AM
Wow Steph- law-enforcement in your area is either very well funded or has a LOT of time on their hands! Here, most Pitts are fighting dogs, but we don't even have the money to have enough animal control to do anything about it. If you call the police about a dangerous dog, they will tell you to shoot it- which is legal! (and I have-to protect one of my own dogs)
I don't think breed bans work, but I've said this before and I will keep saying this- There is a TON of difference between what a Pitt can do to you or your dog and the bite of a Dachshund or Chi. Saying that Pitts are all sweet is like saying that Cattledogs don't have any herding instinct. They are bred specifically to fight & kill other animals. BUT- that doesn't mean there is any difference between walking a Pitt and walking a Lab. I compete in obedience and have seen a lot of Pitts that are very good heelers. I've also had my dogs on long sits & downs in the ring beside Pitts, so I know they CAN be taught to ignore other dogs. I'm getting sick of seeing people drug off their feet by their Pitts, Rotts, and other large strong breeds- they try to "save" these dogs, but can't control them- all the while saying how really sweet and mis-understood they are! I love Rotties and rescued them for 15yrs, but I KNOW what kind of damage they can do. They are not usually dog aggressive, their attacks are usually on humans. I have never taken a dog out in public that I couldn't control! If someone can NOT control their dogs, then they shouldn't have them out in public EVER!
On the other hand- I do know that leashes break or come loose. I killed a dog Monday night. The dog was being walked by his elderly owner, wearing his new harness. They were on one side of the road - his house on the other side, back in the woods. The wife came out to call them in for supper- the dog got excited and the harness came loose. I hit the dog going about 55mph. When I got turned around, I saw the man carrying the dog home. I ran after, offering to call my vet, but the dog was gone. They were crying and I felt horrible! I actually wish I had hit one of the many county fighting dogs- a quick death would have been merciful, but I hit someones much loved pet- a dog that was never allowed to roam.
I would like to think the man with the Pitt really did drop his leash by accident, but it doesn't sound like he has any control. Why didn't he call the dog back to him? Is the dog deaf?
After I hit the couples dog- they kept saying " I should have called him back- he always comes when called"- the wife was calling the dog from the door of the house- the husband was hard of hearing, so she would call the dog. They didn't blame me- they were blaming themselves! I felt horrible!
Kristina- I truly wish you could move!

ACDLuvr
07-29-2009, 12:23 PM
Poor Ivy, it's just a crappy situation. I feel bad for her and you, and while I agree that the owner is totally at fault here, I also feel bad that Pit Bulls get the bad wrap.

I just rescued a Pit Bull puppy, she's 10 weeks old, and I hate being told to euthanize her because she's a monster, and she'll turn on us, and kill our other dogs. I did Pit rescue in Ohio for about 5 years, and it was probably my favorite rescuing that I ever did. That being said, I just moved from somewhere that had a breed ban to somewhere that does not. The breed ban in my hometown didn't work, people still had Pit Bull type dogs, around on big chains, etc to show that they were more 'macho' than the law. It's dumb and ineffective! Here where it is legal to own a Pit, I don't ever see ones who are aggressive, they have all been nice, well-trained and socialized. It would be awful to see all the wonderful Pit Bulls seized and destroyed due to peoples' misconceptions about the breed.

There are negative drawbacks to every breed, heck, when most people find out I have ACDs they tell me how aggressive they are, and that they are all mean.

Education goes much further than banning...

BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!

(off my soapbox now...)

KAKZooKpr
07-29-2009, 12:29 PM
Thanks guys, I really wish I could move, but I own my townhouse and with the market being what it is, nothing is selling. I'm stuck for now.

Cindy, I'm so sorry you hit that poor dog. That must have been awful, but it was an accident.

I do believe that the dog last night escaped by accident, but I have seen this man struggle to maintain control, so I fear something worse could happen in the future. I don't know what the solution is. The man was apologetic and didn't just take off when he caught his dog. He stayed there until I made sure that Ivy was ok & not bleeding.

From Bluerules:
Pit bulls do not know their own strength and when they get happy they get HAPPY that could mean knocking down you or knocking over your other dog. Or sometimes mistaken for aggression because most people are naturaly scared.It's not their fault lol Blame the owners not the breed!!!!! most of the people who get pit bulls WANT an aggressive dog and make it one

This dog was definitely in aggression mode. We were not in sight of him when he came after us, he broke away from his owner and came around the front of the building directly for us. He was intent on getting to us.

I do not believe in BSL either, but there has to be some sort of solution. I would think if your dog has demonstrated aggression to either animals or people, then at the very least they should be muzzled in public. And I don't just mean barking or lunging, this dog made contact last night & it could have been devastating.

Kristina

ACDLuvr
07-29-2009, 12:38 PM
Is there an area where this man could walk his dog, away from the other homeowners? I don't know what he was walking his dog with, but I would recommend he get a stronger collar (possibly a prong) and a stronger lead, or maybe even attach multiple leads in case he were to drop one.

If you are going to own such a powerful breed, you must be responsible for it's actions, and perhaps a muzzle (like a basket muzzle) would be a good investment for this gentleman. It would give residents a little more comfort, and it would prevent a potential mishap from happening again.

Hang in there Kristina!

dingoridge
07-29-2009, 12:45 PM
but I hit someones much loved pet- a dog that was never allowed to roam.
I would like to think the man with the Pitt really did drop his leash by accident, but it doesn't sound like he has any control. Why didn't he call the dog back to him? Is the dog deaf?
After I hit the couples dog- they kept saying " I should have called him back- he always comes when called"- the wife was calling the dog from the door of the house- the husband was hard of hearing, so she would call the dog. They didn't blame me- they were blaming themselves! I felt horrible!
Kristina- I truly wish you could move!

Cindy: I'm so sorry you hit the dog, yes, it was an accident but that still haunts you when something like that happens, especially to someone who obviously loved their dog so much. I know this will stay with you, and the memory of the poor man carrying his beloved pet home, for a long time--I'm so sorry.

The guy with the pit in Kristina's case probably has a dog that isn't obedient to verbal commands either, otherwise he wouldn't have a dog pulling him around the complex. He has a dog that's borderline out of control, a very dangerous situation. He needs a muzzle--as Kristina said, not one for preventing eating but a wire muzzle, fitted properly that will prevent the possibility of a bite--and he should get in some obedience classes and learn to control his dog or get rid of him--or move, he's got a time bomb and it's going to go off eventually. I just hope Ivy isn't the victim or any other dog in that complex. At least the guy was sorry but if you are kneeing beside your dead dog with his legs hanging off and his chest torn out, sorry doesn't cut it. And that visual is from experience (thankfully not my dog), I know what a pit bull who is a fighter can do, it's horrible, intense (you can't get them off once they get "zoned in") and it's final.
J

competitivek9s
07-29-2009, 01:04 PM
Wow Steph- law-enforcement in your area is either very well funded or has a LOT of time on their hands! Here, most Pitts are fighting dogs, but we don't even have the money to have enough animal control to do anything about it.

Neither, but because we live in the capital "image" is very important. We are also very close to Quebec which is the puppy mill capital of canada, and so overworked that instead of pit fighters being here, they just stay in QC. The breed ban was a knee jerk politcal reaction used to help garner votes in an election campaign (which is why I have a hard time accepting any politician attempting to make laws regulating animals, they don't look at the facts). Despite tons of expert advice and some really good alternate proposals, the politician did the usual song and dance to look good and get votes, and so here we are.
As for time or money to enforce it, it is simply our usual bylaw or animal control (again because we are the capital, image is everything, including stray dogs and fear of them). The law states that "any dog RESEMBLING a Pit (the key word there being resembling, which literally a lab could be considered as resembling) MUST be leashed and muzzled in public." Action taken can literally be immediate seizure of the dog. So if a bylaw officer happens to drive by on his way to a call and see a dog unmuzzled that he "believes" to be a Pit resembling dog, he can just pull over, grab the dog and leave. You then have to prove the dog ISN"T a pit mix or pit or any breed or mix resembling it to prevent your dog from being killed or sold to research. Even scarier: This law applies to ANY pit in ontario EVEN IF YOU DON'T live here! Live in quebec and want to visit manitoba? You have to either muzzle the pit while driving through if you stop, or take a detour throught the States, or not bring the dog, or hope you don't get caught (because your dog will be seized if you are, and if you don't prove it's not a pit it will be put down or sold to research, even though the dog doesn't live here).

competitivek9s
07-29-2009, 01:08 PM
I don't think breed bans work, but I've said this before and I will keep saying this- There is a TON of difference between what a Pitt can do to you or your dog and the bite of a Dachshund or Chi.
First, I agree with you on that, but the point we mean when we say other breeds are agressive isn't the damage, it's the idea the banning a breed will stop dog attacks. If we go on the arguement that larger dogs can cause more damage, and also agree any dog can bite, then we the "solution" (and I'm being somewhat sarcastic in that word) is to ban all dogs over 15 pounds. Breed banning isn't about the danger a dog poses, it's about a false sense of security.

Jake&Tex
07-29-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm getting sick of seeing people drug off their feet by their Pitts, Rotts, and other large strong breeds- they try to "save" these dogs, but can't control them- all the while saying how really sweet and mis-understood they are!

Yes, I couldn't agree with this more. Pits aren't for everyone, nor are ACD's for that matter! I have seen some really good Pit Bulls that were lucky enough to be owned by people who did their research and understood them, and take the time to train them properly. And, as you may remember, I've encountered some on the other end of the spectrum too. :(

I hope that you can get Ivy around some good stable dogs in your classes so that she can build some confidence.

havekissedfrogs
07-29-2009, 02:10 PM
On the other hand- I do know that leashes break or come loose. I killed a dog Monday night. The dog was being walked by his elderly owner, wearing his new harness. They were on one side of the road - his house on the other side, back in the woods. The wife came out to call them in for supper- the dog got excited and the harness came loose. I hit the dog going about 55mph. When I got turned around, I saw the man carrying the dog home. I ran after, offering to call my vet, but the dog was gone. They were crying and I felt horrible! I actually wish I had hit one of the many county fighting dogs- a quick death would have been merciful, but I hit someones much loved pet- a dog that was never allowed to roam.
I would like to think the man with the Pitt really did drop his leash by accident, but it doesn't sound like he has any control. Why didn't he call the dog back to him? Is the dog deaf?
After I hit the couples dog- they kept saying " I should have called him back- he always comes when called"- the wife was calling the dog from the door of the house- the husband was hard of hearing, so she would call the dog. They didn't blame me- they were blaming themselves! I felt horrible!
Kristina- I truly wish you could move!
Cindy, I understand how bad you feel about this horrible mistake, and I sympathize. But this is an example of why I don't like guns! It is too easy to make a fatal mistake. It usually happens too fast to get all the facts before firing a gun. I hear many many stories about deadly "accidents" that happen with guns, and rarely, if ever hear any stories about people who actually saved their own life or anyone else's with a gun.
I once had a man break into my house with a loaded gun and I was saved by my dog! I didn't own a gun, and if I had, we probably would both be dead. All I had was a good dog, and that was enough!

Beth99
07-29-2009, 02:22 PM
I am so sorry this happened to Ivy, I can imagine how scary that was, I'm so glad she is okay. Perhaps you could talk to the owner and suggest obedience training, a canine behaviorist, neutering/spaying and muzzling. If you could talk to the dog's owner when neither of you have your dogs out, maybe he would be willing to take the time to listen. Hopefully educting the owner will help before this dog's aggression escalates to something serious.

The biggest issue I have with people who own the large, powerful, breeds that can have aggression issues (pit bulls, rotties, chows, akitas etc.) is that many of these owners don't understand the power of the dog they own. They refuse to acknowledge the damage a pit bull can do compared to an average dog.

I don't believe that breed bans work, I think they hurt mainly the responsible dog owners with good dogs. The dog fighting rings etc,. will continue to do what they want to.

Jake&Tex
07-29-2009, 02:51 PM
Cindy, I understand how bad you feel about this horrible mistake, and I sympathize. But this is an example of why I don't like guns! It is too easy to make a fatal mistake. It usually happens too fast to get all the facts before firing a gun. I hear many many stories about deadly "accidents" that happen with guns, and rarely, if ever hear any stories about people who actually saved their own life or anyone else's with a gun.
I once had a man break into my house with a loaded gun and I was saved by my dog! I didn't own a gun, and if I had, we probably would both be dead. All I had was a good dog, and that was enough!

I don't think she shot the dog.... I think she hit the dog on accident with her car....

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.

TexasCDLorenz
07-29-2009, 02:55 PM
I once had a man break into my house with a loaded gun and I was saved by my dog! I didn't own a gun, and if I had, we probably would both be dead. All I had was a good dog, and that was enough!

Joanne- I know you don't like guns, but I would NEVER want my dogs to try and defend me! That can get THEM shot or stabbed! Please- if this ever happens again- please, please call your dog to you. Get a tazer! Stun guns work! (I prefer my more deadly force) But anyway- if you ever have to defend yourself or Talulah- try a tazer. My Mother uses a nail-gun- a few shots with a nail gun will hurt like heck and scare the intruder away! My husband is often asked if we kept Rotties for protection. He would laugh and tell them that if anybody ever hurt one of my "babies" , he would have to explain to a judge why I shot someone 30 times (then running to Walmart to buy more ammo- then letting them have another few rounds) I was once told by a policeman that it is legal to defend your pets- but then he added (he knew me well) that it was NOT legal to call your relatives and have the guy hung by his private parts! I'm very protective of my dogs!

littleroads
07-29-2009, 03:08 PM
I don't think she shot the dog.... I think she hit the dog on accident with her car....

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.


She hit the dog with her car (accidentally). Something that I hope never happens to me, I would have nightmares for a very long time. I'm so sorry that happened, Cindy!

Rody Jane doesn't have a good recall either, and it would be my worst nightmare if she got loose and got hit by a car. I know she would not come back to me if I called her - she is waaaaay too focused on whatever she goes after. So - ALWAYS on a leash for her when we are out!

TexasCDLorenz
07-29-2009, 03:09 PM
I don't think she shot the dog.... I think she hit the dog on accident with her car....

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.

Oh NO! I didn't shoot the dog! I was driving home and it was dark. He was a black dog and ran right out in front of me!
I'm VERY careful with firearms! I've been shooting guns since I was big enough to hold one! I've never shot anything by accident!! Grazed an intruder and had to shoot a Pitt once when he jumped my fence. He had already killed one of my dogs and was fighting (and tearing apart) my elderly male Rottie. I tazed him- causing my own dog to get shocked, but the Pitt let him go- but then he came after me. I used the stun gun again, but back then, the old ones didn't have much a charge after the first use- it dazed him, but didn't stop him- It took a full cylinder (6 bullets) to stop him. I shot both times with purpose- but NEVER had any accidents! I have respect for guns, know how to use one and I am very careful! I would NEVER, NEVER shoot without being sure of what and where I was shooting!
My accident with the dog was from my van. I was driving below the speed limit, but even so, the road was wet- if I had seen the dog, I don't know if I could have stopped. My van is a full size and will not stop quickly.

KAKZooKpr
07-29-2009, 05:33 PM
I am so sorry this happened to Ivy, I can imagine how scary that was, I'm so glad she is okay. Perhaps you could talk to the owner and suggest obedience training, a canine behaviorist, neutering/spaying and muzzling. If you could talk to the dog's owner when neither of you have your dogs out, maybe he would be willing to take the time to listen. Hopefully educting the owner will help before this dog's aggression escalates to something serious.

Unfortunately I don't think he is the kind of person to be open to such things. I think he owns the dog exactly for the macho reasons mentioned. :(

Kristina

autiger23
07-29-2009, 05:38 PM
Rody Jane doesn't have a good recall either, and it would be my worst nightmare if she got loose and got hit by a car. I know she would not come back to me if I called her - she is waaaaay too focused on whatever she goes after. So - ALWAYS on a leash for her when we are out!

Yeah, this is Buck's issue, too, and my biggest fear as well. I met a co-worker's dog last night and was holding onto her collar while petting her when I opened the car to greet her. He was confused as to why I was holding her (we were close to a road)- I didn't even think for a second that he wouldn't *have* to keep a hand on her or her leash at all times. It's just not something that even occurs to me as possible.

Eileen- they have a class here called "Really Reliable Recall" that I plan on taking one of mine to the next time it's available. I'll write up what I learn each week and send it to you to see if it helps with Rody Jane. The lady that created this training did it for her afghan hounds which are apparently terrible at recall and also may have some of the same kind of intense focus that cattle dogs do, so it may be effective for ACDs.

havekissedfrogs
07-29-2009, 06:35 PM
I don't think she shot the dog.... I think she hit the dog on accident with her car....

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.
Ooops, sorry. I did think that she had shot the dog. I recalled Cindy recently saying that she always carries a loaded gun, so I assumed that was what happened. I didn't see anything in her original post about a car. I'm going to my crate now.

havekissedfrogs
07-29-2009, 07:04 PM
Joanne- I know you don't like guns, but I would NEVER want my dogs to try and defend me! That can get THEM shot or stabbed! Please- if this ever happens again- please, please call your dog to you. Get a tazer! Stun guns work! (I prefer my more deadly force) But anyway- if you ever have to defend yourself or Talulah- try a tazer. My Mother uses a nail-gun- a few shots with a nail gun will hurt like heck and scare the intruder away!
Actually what happened in that incident was that the guy broke in when I wasn't home, he was waiting inside the house when I returned, and my dog wouldn't let me go in the front door! I could tell by her behavior that something was amiss, so I ran back to my car and got the police. They caught the guy, which was when I learned that he was carrying a loaded gun, plus other scary stuff like handcuffs and rope. O.O If it hadn't been for my dog, I would have walked in not suspecting anything and who knows what would have happened. I doubt that I could have done anything to protect myself, even if I had a weapon. He probably would have grabbed me from behind!
Anyway, sorry to get so off-topic here. I'm very sorry that Kristina and Ivy had those scary experiences, and really hope that Kristina can move to someplace safer before anything worse happens. It doesn't sound like there is any other solution to this problem.

Beth99
07-29-2009, 07:10 PM
Actually what happened in that incident was that the guy broke in when I wasn't home, he was waiting inside the house when I returned, and my dog wouldn't let me go in the front door! I could tell by her behavior that something was amiss, so I ran back to my car and got the police. They caught the guy, which was when I learned that he was carrying a loaded gun, plus other scary stuff like handcuffs and rope. O.O If it hadn't been for my dog, I would have walked in not suspecting anything and who knows what would have happened. I doubt that I could have done anything to protect myself, even if I had a weapon. He probably would have grabbed me from behind!
Anyway, sorry to get so off-topic here. I'm very sorry that Kristina and Ivy had those scary experiences, and really hope that Kristina can move to someplace safer before anything worse happens. It doesn't sound like there is any other solution to this problem.

Joanne, that is so scary, thank goodness your dog warned you! Was the dog Tallulah or another?

havekissedfrogs
07-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Joanne, that is so scary, thank goodness your dog warned you! Was the dog Tallulah or another?
It was many years ago, way before Tallulah. Just a wonderful mixed-breed dog that I adopted from a shelter in San Francisco. But I do think that Tallulah would do the same thing if anything like that happened, even tho' she's very friendly to strangers out in public. When she is in the car or in the house and a stranger approaches or knocks, she acts fierce! I don't feel safe living alone without a dog.

3blues
07-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Our guys don't have great recall either but we always have them on leash. Baxter though is really good on recall unless it's a critter. :p:

Cindy-I am soooo sorry to hear about your incident. I know that's got to be just awful. :( It was an accident, I know that doesn't make you feel any better but there was nothing you could do.

I personally LOVE guns & would shoot someone if they broke in our house, especially if they tried to hurt one of our "kids." I wouldn't want my dog to get hurt by an intruder either.

Joanne that must have been truly horrible to come home to something like that. Thank God for your dog! To just about walk into something like that, wow. O.O I'm just glad you're dog was with you & you didn't get hurt.

Back on topic here........Kristina if you want us to we'll come down & walk with you to help protect you from these dogs. I wish these people would do something helpful to their dogs like training. I just hope you & Ivy stay safe & don't get hurt. Not just Ivy but what if that dog had gone after you? :( Be very careful when you're out please. :)

KAKZooKpr
07-29-2009, 11:20 PM
A little update, around 9 PM tonight I was taking Katy for a walk and as we rounded the corner I see the dog. My first thought was Oh Sh**! I couldn't see anyone with the dog. I finally spotted a woman and shouted out to ask if the dog was secure, which he was. I proceeded to tell her about last night's incident and she had no idea. She was extremely apologetic and promised me that it wouldn't happen again. Apparently the dogs (also a female Pit w/ pups...ugh!) are owned by her 76 yr old Mother (why would she have these dogs???). I'm not clear on the relatioship of the man that was walking the dog, but the woman promised that she would be taking charge of the dog & walking him to be sure nothing happens. I'm sure she doesn't want her mother to get sued over something her stupid relative does with her dogs. I told her that dogs like hers are a huge liability and I didn't want to live in fear everytime I step out the door. She seemed to understand & sympathize. I only hope that she means it. I still don't know exactly which unit they are in.

Anyway, that's the latest. Thank you for your offer Martha! :) Honestly, I would rather the dog come after me than Ivy. I am also now carrying one of those flexible police batons, I will whack the crap out of any dog that comes after me or my dogs!

Kristina

Nomadofthehills
07-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Dangerous dog laws > breed bans.

Nomadofthehills
07-30-2009, 05:56 PM
A little update, around 9 PM tonight I was taking Katy for a walk and as we rounded the corner I see the dog. My first thought was Oh Sh**!

You probably know this, but don't let your dog sense that Oh Sh** attitude ;)

dingoridge
07-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Honestly, I would rather the dog come after me than Ivy. I am also now carrying one of those flexible police batons, I will whack the crap out of any dog that comes after me or my dogs!

Kristina

Amen to that, however to hit him he's going to have to be close!!!! But I'm glad you are carrying something to protect both you and your dogs. And I'm very glad you talked with the lady, maybe she will be more responsible than the guy, although sympathetic, he still let the dog get loose. So, I hope this lady will keep the dog contained--and if she could handle him, why couldn't the guy--maybe she does have respect from the dog and he doesn't. Anyway, I hope this situation doesn't occur again but do whatever you need to do to protect yourself and your kids--I know you will. And I have to wonder myself, a 76 year-old woman breeding pit bulls and with two adult pits, male and female (unless I read it all wrong), good grief, that sounds odd--maybe it's just me.

I hope the housing market relaxes in Atlanta and you can get the heck out of there--you don't need to be tense yourself every time you take Ivy out. And yes, I'm sure the "Oh s**t" response telegraphs back to Ivy but it's hard to not feel some tension after having a pit grab her side in a bite yesterday and it being the second incident of a pit rushing you. If you didn't have a little concern being surprised by seeing the same dog again, I would compliment you on your mental stamina. While it's advisable to always be ready for the unexpected, the fact that it is the unexpected catches us off guard sometimes.
J

3blues
07-31-2009, 01:15 AM
Wow you're right, what's a 76 year old woman doing with pit bulls? O.O I just don't understand some people. Her relatives or kids probably asked her to keep them for her.

Our offer stands good.......anytime you need us call & we'll be down there. :D We'll come prepared to help. :)

Chew Toy
07-31-2009, 01:27 AM
....I am also now carrying one of those flexible police batons, I will whack the crap out of any dog that comes after me or my dogs!

Kristina
here ya go....
Stun Batons From Guardian Self Defense

Stun Master, Streetwise Stun Batons

http://www.guardian-self-defense.com/images/stunbaton/SM300SBsm.JPGStun batons are excellent non-lethal personal security weapons for both human attackers and aggressive dogs. One of the major benefits to carrying a stun baton is the extended reach. The more distance you can put between you and them the better. Our mini batons are 10 inches in length and our longest stun baton measures 20 inches in length. Voltage levels range between 300,000 and 1 million volts. The baton will also deliver a shock when touched six inches from the tip, to prevent an assailant from grabbing it and taking it away. No permanent damage. Full recovery within 5-10 minutes.
No stun guns to NY, MA, IL, NJ or Philadelphia, PA. Click here for stun gun laws (http://www.guardian-self-defense.com/stungunlaws.htm)

dingoridge
07-31-2009, 10:27 AM
Excellent, Kristina check this out!!
J

KAKZooKpr
07-31-2009, 08:19 PM
Excellent, Kristina check this out!!
J

I will for sure!

Also, for the number of incidents this year with Pit Bulls, it has been 5, with 3 separate dogs. Ivy must look like a tasty snack to Pit Bulls. :(

The good news is that Ivy went to her first night of Intermediate Obedience last night and even though she was around some new dogs she did very well. I was worried that she would be nervous. Whew!

Kristina

dingoridge
07-31-2009, 09:35 PM
Good for Ivy and good for you, good work teaching her confidence. Get that baton and let'em have it. This is enough and Ivy doesn't need to be a meal for some out of control dog. Zap 'em to the ground!!
J

noworriesjake
07-31-2009, 10:02 PM
Maybe you need to get Ivy one of those black leather collars with the big spikes on it so she looks meaner to the big dogs. :lol: Ha, I crack myself up!

dingoridge
07-31-2009, 11:52 PM
I think they need matching spiked collars--then maybe get a set for all Ivy's legs to go with Kristina's wrist spikes. Get the baton, put that wrist strap around your spiked leather arm bands and walk the sidewalks like you just bought 'em all, :lol:. At least if they bite either one of you, they will leave with a mouth full of metal, :grr:. And when they stop to pick the metal out of their teeth, zap them with the baton!!! Mama biker and the biker dog!! YEAH! Sic 'em Kristina and Ivy!! Grrrrrr:grr:
J

3blues
08-01-2009, 01:03 AM
:lol: That's funny. Kristina you & Ivy should get leather suits with spikes to protect from the pits. :p: Like J said they'll be picking the metal out of their teeth.

Way to go Ivy!!! Wooo who! I'm glad class went really well. YOu go girl. :D

KAKZooKpr
08-01-2009, 09:16 AM
You guys are too funny! :D You are turning us into Dominatrixes with those outfits! The funny thing is, I have thought of the spiked collar to protect her neck. We might need the whole outfit though! Would Ivy be able to carry her weight in spikes?? :lol:

Just thought of the next designer breed: ACD X Porcupine = Pit Bull proof dog! We'll make millions!! :lol:

Kristina

dingoridge
08-01-2009, 10:19 AM
You are turning us into Dominatrixes with those outfits! The funny thing is, I have thought of the spiked collar to protect her neck. We might need the whole outfit though! Would Ivy be able to carry her weight in spikes?? :lol:

Just thought of the next designer breed: ACD X Porcupine = Pit Bull proof dog! We'll make millions!! :lol:

Kristina

Weight training coming up for Ivy----sled pulling scheduled soon! I like the leather suit idea with spikes--that's a mean look, yeah!!

Designer dog "Cattlepines" :lol::lol:----now that is FUNNY!!!.
J

3blues
08-01-2009, 01:56 PM
Weight training coming up for Ivy----sled pulling scheduled soon! I like the leather suit idea with spikes--that's a mean look, yeah!!

Designer dog "Cattlepines" :lol::lol:----now that is FUNNY!!!.
J


That's so funny. :lol: Cattlepines. :lol: :lol:

KAKZooKpr
08-01-2009, 05:48 PM
Can someone photoshop that? Ivy's head on a porcupine body, that would be hilarious! :lol:

Kristina

TexasCDLorenz
08-01-2009, 07:45 PM
I wonder if you could teach a porcupine to heel? THAT would teach those nasty dogs a lesson! Don't forget the dominatrix thing for Halloween! Don't forget to post pics either! LOL

KAKZooKpr
08-01-2009, 07:46 PM
I wonder if you could teach a porcupine to heel? THAT would teach those nasty dogs a lesson! Don't forget the dominatrix thing for Halloween! Don't forget to post pics either! LOL

:lol: Too funny! :lol:

YogiBear
08-02-2009, 12:35 PM
Aloha,

Slightly OT,

KAKZooKpr, I believe Georgia(you are in Georgia, right?) is a Shall Issue state for the carrying of a concealed firearm. Which means that you CAN get a permit to carry your 38. As long as you have a clean record, they Must issue you the permit.

The Stun Baton is also a nice idea. I'd get the Most powerful one that I can easily carry. No substitute for sheer Power in any violent attack situation.

Personally, Mrs YB and I would carry something larger than a 38. Any caliber that begins with a 4- is nice. We believe in the Big heavy bullet moving at moderate velocoties to Stop an Attack.

Unfortunately, Hawaii is a No issue state. Very Anti-2A government And police.

From what has been said, I am presuming that TexasCD does have a Texas CCW permit, since it was mentioned she carries and has had to use her firearm in self defense. Texas is waay ahead in these laws compared to Hawaii. We are a criminal's dream, a victim rich environment.

I carry pepper gel(harder to get off).

Tazer, stun baton etc are Illegal here in Hawaii.

mlanger
08-02-2009, 01:00 PM
That's so funny. :lol: Cattlepines. :lol: :lol:
Well they all ready have the propensity toward the other name
combination---PORKYDOGS:lmao:

Bluerules
08-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Aww dont shoot somebodys dog. Im on your side %100 but what if the dog was just being over playful and you shot him for no reason just cause you where scared or what if it was a one time mistake the dog got loose. Im sure every ones had a dog that got loose once in their life by mistake even if just for a minute. What if somebody shot your dog when it just went to greet another dog. And this breed hate is exactly the same as racism, sexism, or any other kind of discrimination.

KAKZooKpr
08-03-2009, 07:45 AM
This dog was deinitely NOT friendly! Sorry, but I will defend my pets to the best of my abilities.

Kristina



Aww dont shoot somebodys dog. Im on your side %100 but what if the dog was just being over playful and you shot him for no reason just cause you where scared or what if it was a one time mistake the dog got loose. Im sure every ones had a dog that got loose once in their life by mistake even if just for a minute. What if somebody shot your dog when it just went to greet another dog. And this breed hate is exactly the same as racism, sexism, or any other kind of discrimination.

Bluerules
08-03-2009, 05:19 PM
This dog was deinitely NOT friendly! Sorry, but I will defend my pets to the best of my abilities.

Kristina
Oh I wasent talking about the dog that nipped Ivy.. Im sure that's not friendly behaviour. But since you seem to be so afraid of pitbulls with a hate for them the next one you try to shoot maybe not even be aggressive and you might just blast him for being a pitbull.. then also you will have to keep an eye on your dogs after that because im sure the other dogs owner would belooking for retaliation.
And I def think you should get a big spike collar for Ivy! Both Sydney and Sandy have one and Sandy wears hers to the dog park because you just never know she's old and getting frail and dogs like to go for the neck all the time..

TexasCDLorenz
08-03-2009, 05:49 PM
NO one should have to put a big spike collar on their dog to protect them. As for dogs going for the neck- dogs should NOT be allowed to get that rough!
Common sense tells you, that ANY large breed dog can do a lot of damage and any strange dog can be dangerous. As much as I love Rotties, I would NOT fault anyone for tazing my dog if they ran at them, especially if they actually grabbed someone elses dog! For that reason, I have NEVER let my Rotties run loose or go to a dogpark. I also don't let my dogs get so rough with other dogs that they are "going for the neck". You can't equate racial discrimination of humans with the instinct behavior of dogs- some breeds ARE bred to KILL other animals and the sad truth is that the majority of those dogbreeds are owned by irresponsible people. Kristina has the right to protect herself and her pets. Get the stun gun and use it- it does NO lasting damage, but it could save Ivy (and Kristina)

competitivek9s
08-03-2009, 06:13 PM
As much as I love Rotties, I would NOT fault anyone for tazing my dog if they ran at them, especially if they actually grabbed someone elses dog! For that reason, I have NEVER let my Rotties run loose or go to a dogpark. I also don't let my dogs get so rough with other dogs that they are "going for the neck". You can't equate racial discrimination of humans with the instinct behavior of dogs- some breeds ARE bred to KILL other animals and the sad truth is that the majority of those dogbreeds are owned by irresponsible people. Kristina has the right to protect herself and her pets. Get the stun gun and use it- it does NO lasting damage, but it could save Ivy (and Kristina)

I think she meant don't shoot with a real gun (ie shoot and kill someones dog for running up) not a stun gun... If you make a mistake and the dog is friendly, you could have a major issue on your hand, killing someone's dog. Yes protect yourself, but you are better with a stun gun then a real one I think.

Bluerules
08-03-2009, 09:21 PM
NO one should have to put a big spike collar on their dog to protect them. As for dogs going for the neck- dogs should NOT be allowed to get that rough!
Common sense tells you, that ANY large breed dog can do a lot of damage and any strange dog can be dangerous. As much as I love Rotties, I would NOT fault anyone for tazing my dog if they ran at them, especially if they actually grabbed someone elses dog! For that reason, I have NEVER let my Rotties run loose or go to a dogpark. I also don't let my dogs get so rough with other dogs that they are "going for the neck". You can't equate racial discrimination of humans with the instinct behavior of dogs- some breeds ARE bred to KILL other animals and the sad truth is that the majority of those dogbreeds are owned by irresponsible people. Kristina has the right to protect herself and her pets. Get the stun gun and use it- it does NO lasting damage, but it could save Ivy (and Kristina)
well OBVIOUSLY NOT but OBVIOUSLY in Kristines neighbourhood their are aggressive pitbulls running amock. And she OBVISOUSLY and understandably is afraid and she sends that message directly down the leash to Ivy which makes her a direct target for other dogs re-guardless of their breed. And I was talking about a real run .. not a stun gun and heck yea stun gun a dog if it's chargeing you.. but no need to pull out your glock and start blasting somebodys pet because you are scared. And not even to mention all the other safety dangers this poses. In Canada you have to take a safety (and im sure you do in the states as well) course to get your gun licence (I have mine). and the time it would take you to stop and load a gun with two or even one leash in hand.. the dogs would be chewed to bits by then and you might accidently shoot your own dog:cry: and it is exactly the same as any kind of human discrimination. you see a pit bull or a black man or a asain woman or a rotti and you automaticly label them before you even know them.. that's called discrimination.

littleroads
08-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Neither Cindy nor Kristina are advocating shooting a dog - that would be a LAST resort - and if a stun gun works on a dog who is attacking, then so be it. Kristina is understandably nervous; she *should* be able to walk her dogs without fear of being attacked. Once or twice you could see a person slipping up and maybe losing a leash on accident. But in her neighborhood this seems to be a regular occurrence, and yeah - the folks there need to learn to control their dogs. It does seem that the people who are just looking to appear macho by having one of the "labeled" breeds only create problems for those who want to advocate for them. It's sad, because we all know of pits who are wonderful, beautiful companions in family homes - and of others who had the bad fortune to fall into the wrong hands, and pay the ultimate price.

KAKZooKpr
08-03-2009, 11:47 PM
I do own a gun, but I don't walk around with it. I would only shoot an animal/person if it was dire life or death. I do not advocate walking around like we're in the wild west. A stun gun or pepper spray/citronella spray would seem more appropriate for the situations I have encountered. I would hope that I would never actually have to use them. Since the night I spoke to the lady with the Pit Bull (the same attacker), I have not seen them since. I am hoping that the lady was true to her word and will do her best to make sure the dogs don't get put into such a dangerous situation again. Before these instances, I really did like Pit Bulls and I know that they all aren't like that. I try to be open minded, however it seems lately that there is an influx of these dogs with less than responsible owners and that is what scares me. I know Ivy would react to any dog (big or small) charging her in the same manner, she is just not a super confident dog. She had the same fear reaction over tiny little Katy when first meeting her. It's just that when you have an unknown dog charging you, the worst case scenario comes to mind, even more so when it is such a powerful breed as the Pit Bull.

Anyway, I would like to thank everyone for being so supportive. It's why I love this forum & the people on it. Even when we don't see eye to eye, we are still here for the dogs & each other!

Kristina

Bluerules
08-04-2009, 12:08 AM
Im wondering if some how the loose pitbulls (besides the one in the last incidence) could some how be coming from the same owner? maybe a fight club near by?
I do feel bad and I know exactly what it's like to not feel safe walking your dog. I used to have to walk my old dog blue with a big stick and we'd still get charged. I do not believe we are allowed to carry stun guns in Alberta but if your allowed to there then go for it! I would have loved one about 5 years ago when Sandy kept getting attacked by GSDs:cry: She was also fearful of large dogs for sometime after this but she has since grown out of it and with some work Im sure Ivy can too :D good luck in your future walks and you should be carrying SOMETHING.. even if it's just a 'walking' stick and it is a shame you even have to carry anything

KAKZooKpr
08-04-2009, 12:42 AM
The first instance was when I took Ivy to get spayed, we were waiting outside the door when another lady was getting out of her car. Her Pit Bull backed out of his collar to come over, he was defintely the friendly & over excited type (still scared Ivy, but I wasn't worried for her physical safety). I helped the lady out by getting a hold of the dog for her until she could get his collar back on.

The next couple of incidents were by a neighbor kid across the street, his dog seemed to be friendly, but got the feeling it could escalate. The dog was friendly to me though. More scariness for Ivy and a little more scary for me. I've had other issues with this kid too.

Most recent incident was different dog/different neighbor, most definitely aggressive and scariest event to date.

Definitely not the same owners, but as far as the neighborhood goes or a fighting ring, you never know. It just seems odd that there is such a recent influx of Pit Bulls here when there wasn't before. These just don't seem like your "average family pet" dogs.

Now, I wanted to add on a positive note that my best friend has a Pit Bull mix that she rescued off the road. Rio appeared to have been used as a bait dog in her previous life. She had some issues to overcome, but she is a wonderful dog. My friend teaches wildlife classes to kids and Rio has been recently certified to enter classrooms for teaching purposes. We just need more positive stories to get out there!

Kristina

ACDfan
08-05-2009, 04:17 PM
It is the people who can't control the dogs, not the dog breed. Before the 1980s you never saw Pit Bull attacks. It wasn't until the drug dealers in the inner city wanted a portable guard dog that they started misusing and abusing Pit bulls.

Pit Bulls pass Humane Society temperament test more often than Golden Ret. and yes even ACDs.

We as a society need to apply blame to human beings who do bad things and not looking for other scapegoats.