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YogiBear
06-20-2009, 10:14 PM
Aloha,


Today, the Wife and I heard a sad story from our local pet food store.

I was talking with one of the clerks and we were talking dogs and I showed her a photo of our ACD. She recognized them as ACDs immediately.

She told us that she had heard that a friend or similar had an ACD that wouldn't stop barking no matter what the woman owner did. The woman had to goto court because of a barking dog complaint and she lost. The Court told her to put the dog down or have it De-barked. She chose to De-bark the dog.

Since we have a neighbor like that, and our dogs have stopped barking a 1000% from before. I'm hopeing he is satisfied.

I told him what about the other dozen or so dogs in the neighborhood that bark. He doesn't care, I think that he may have it in for US and our kids.

We just moved in and have been here less than 3 months.

If it gets to that, I really don't know what we will do. All our kids are AKC dogs and we really want to have puppies......

Jakie's Mom
06-21-2009, 12:10 AM
Dogs bark...that is their form of communication. If your neighbor can't understand that, start looking for a new place to live. It is never worth it to hurt your dog to avail someone's Dog prejudices! Good luck and love to your dogs Jakie's Mom

CattyBossDog
06-21-2009, 01:36 AM
I'm sorry, but in the 1st world there is no way a court of law would hand down a decision to de-bark or put down a dog over a noise complaint.

Another story blown out of proportion I would say.

If ppl are to post rumours such as this I would appreciate a link to an official source as proof so no silly arguments are started over heresay. Thanks.

3blues
06-21-2009, 02:21 AM
That's horrible to force someone into such a decision. Hopefully the story was inaccurate on the de-barking.

I do have a friend who adopted a sheltie years ago from some people who had the little guy debarked. One reason she took Darby was because of what the people had done to him. He was the sweetest little guy & adorable. In later years he did get some of his bark back but it was more of a squeak. :no:

YogiBear
06-21-2009, 06:42 AM
Aloha,

Sorry to say that this is Hawaii and I believe Our courts are that liberal.

So much so that I am going to video record to DVD our dogs on a daily basis when we are not home. He's so bad that we have to keep our kids locked in the house when we go out. I try Not to stay out for more than 5 hours for their comfort. We used to keep our back door open so that they could come and go as they pleased. He must look over our 6' wall and "mentioned" the open back door.....soooo.

He had his son mow the grass in the sidewalk area next to the street because it was too tall(2X). He has since mentioned it to us 2 more times. I told him curtly, My Grass, My Responsibility, Leave it alone. No doubt he will complain to the City inspectors about my tall grass.....The grass in our back yard is almost belly high to the kids in some places and they like it. So do we.

He claims that my dog's barking sets off all the other neighborhood dogs, Yeh Right......
His dog has set off my dogs and he says no, his dog doesn't do that....

He's sooo perfect......

dingoridge
06-21-2009, 09:31 AM
He sounds like he's retired military--he's a control freak and that can be trouble, he doesn't see where his limits end and your freedom begins. Changing him will be as difficult as keeping a dog from barking every again--impossible. I would be tempted to tell him if I saw him looking over my wall again I would report him for being a peeping Tom or stalking me; looking over your wall is ridiculous. Your best bet may be to find another beautiful place to live, this is unfortunate but sometimes when you live beside someone who demands to control your life you have little choice.

I had a Sheltie who was debarked, the breeder had her debarked before I got her. The hole did grow back, she ended up with a coarse bark but a bark nonetheless and was almost as loud as my other Sheltie's bark who wasn't debarked. Dogs bark out of fear, from a protection instinct, from joy, while having fun, playing with each other, communicating with each other, etc. so to expect a dog to not bark is totally unrealistic.
J

Ringtailroxy
06-21-2009, 11:00 AM
unfortunately, in the states, you can sue anyone for just about anything! imagine my laughter when i saw a billboard on the highway for http://www.whocanisue.com/ with an image of a man in a business suit slipping on a banana peel! well, not so funny anymore. a close friend of mine is being sued by her neighbor...because her 3 month old son screams during the night! my friend, Alicia, is a single mom living in a nice apartment complex...yet ever since she had her son, her neighbor has complained about his crying. and now it's going to court over breaking noice ordinances for the early morning hours...

looky here:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Dogs-Have-No-Comment-on-Barking-Ban.html

america isn't just the land of capitalism...it's the land of 'easy money' and someone, somewhere, is always 'responsible' for any little owie, boo-boo, or discomfort you may have.

remember-it was here in florida where a man sued his vet for misdiagnosing his dog's disease...and he won.

as a matter of fact, Nova Southeastern university, which cranks out hundreds of new lawyers a year, has now designed entire careers around animal law.

rtr

littleroads
06-21-2009, 11:13 AM
Sorry, Carey - and I don't have a link anywhere, but many places here do have noise ordinances, and if your dog is PROVEN to be in violation of those ordinances, a judge can order you to either de-bark, or "get rid of" the dog - either rehome or PTS. There does have to be "just cause" though, it can't just be on someone's complaint - it would have to be documented with witnesses. All it would take really, would be someone with a grudge, documenting number of calls to the police department, and a friend or relative willing to vouch for them. :no:

I would HOPE that a judge would consider having the "offender" take training classes, or suggest training (citronella) collars, but you just never know. Depends on if it's a dog-friendly judge.

RickAKAFishslayer
06-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Aloha,

Sorry to say that this is Hawaii and I believe Our courts are that liberal.


He had his son mow the grass in the sidewalk area next to the street because it was too tall(2X). He has since mentioned it to us 2 more times. I told him curtly, My Grass, My Responsibility, Leave it alone. No doubt he will complain to the City inspectors about my tall grass.....The grass in our back yard is almost belly high to the kids in some places and they like it. So do we.

He claims that my dog's barking sets off all the other neighborhood dogs, Yeh Right......
His dog has set off my dogs and he says no, his dog doesn't do that....

He's sooo perfect......

Maybe suggest to your neighbor he might be happier back on the mainland...


Rick:paw:

YogiBear
06-21-2009, 01:07 PM
Aloha,

dingoridge has his number, he is a retired Lt Col, USMC and works on base, which is 200 yds from us. He has "mentioned" his neighbors noisey granddaughter, my back neighbors 3 year old son's crying(once, which I barely heard) etc.

At the moment moving is Not an option. We can't afford it. It cost us Over $850K to get here and we have borrowed to the limit. It's a really nice place compared to where we came from(drug dealers, pimps, homeless, bad kids etc) We thought it was "dog friendly" because when we can to look at the place, we heard several dogs barking and saw several being walked in front. I have identified at least a dozen other dogs who IMO bark more than ours. Our present back yard is over half the size of our former home entire property and the "kids" love it. Here I room to throw a ball and play with the kids. I think he resents that I play with the kids too. He even researched the ACD breed and made a comment hinting that we shouldn't have such dogs in this neighborhood because of their energy level.

Here in Hawaii, doesn't take much to make a complaint, justified or not, thanks to liberal laws.

As I said earlier, his dog barks and has set our dogs off on several instances, which he denys. His dog is perfect.......

dingoridge
06-21-2009, 01:50 PM
Yep, figures, he is used to barking orders and everyone obeys. He's had things his way and because of his rank no one can get in his face. He probably is jealous of the kids coming there, he's such a jerk who wants to be with him. And whether your dogs have energy or not is none of his business. Can you imagine what living with this pompous A$$$$ is like? Unfortunately everything I would suggest would probably land me in jail so sorry for the harassment but outside of telling him to mind his own business, keep his butt off your property, keep his lawnmower out of your grass and recording everytime his dog barks and sets your dogs off, you have little you can do, it seems. But I think I would make a note of when he is watching your property and indicate that if that doesn't stop you will make a complaint about a peeping Tom or someone you are concerned may be a stalker. He's going to be a problem as long as he lives there, he wants everything his way and he's used to getting it from his military life. He's miserable pond scum and makes everyone else around him the same way.

Sorry, I doubt he would want to go back to the mainland, he is living in paradise and why should he move? If, however, he made me get my dogs debarked, he would have an enemy for life and I would find ways to be his worst nightmare, I would record everything his dog does and it would be complaint for complaint, electrify the top of my back fencing and give him a surprise if he touched my fence, report him for being a peeping tom every time I caught him eyeing my house and my dogs, etc.--but then that's just me--and I said I would probably land in jail so probably suggestions from others would be more to your liking.
J

CattyBossDog
06-21-2009, 05:10 PM
Sorry, Carey - and I don't have a link anywhere, ...

As I alluded to previously, without proof it's just heresay.

Many people talk about these types of things, but not in fact, and that's where the saying "old wive's tale" comes from.

If a judge were to hand down a sentence such as "debark or kill" he/she would have animal activist groups knocking down his/her front door.

littleroads
06-21-2009, 08:04 PM
Every township has their own ordinance. Here is one recently enacted in Riverside, CA:

http://antibarkcollarguide.com/anti-bark-ordinance-enacted-in-riverside-ca/Anti Bark Ordinance Enacted in Riverside, CA (http://antibarkcollarguide.com/anti-bark-ordinance-enacted-in-riverside-ca/)

January 25th, 2009 | Author: Newyork204 (http://www.aucado.us/forums/#)

Another reason you might want to get an no bark collar if you live in Riverside, CA or any other city with a “anti-nuisance ordinance.”

RIVERSIDE, Calif. — The Riverside County Board of Supervisors approved Tuesday an anti-nuisance ordinance aimed at silencing noisy dogs by slapping their owners with fines that can range as high as $500.

The ordinance, which the board tentatively approved in December, also changes the way dog nuisance complaints are handled by delegating authority to administrative hearing officers to determine whether a nuisance gripe is justified and how to remedy the problem.

Under current county law, when a resident in an unincorporated community complains about a barking, howling or otherwise noisy dog, an Animal Services officer investigates the matter, generally by visiting the location where the disturbance has been reported, according to Riverside County Animal Services Field Commander Rita Gutierrez.

She said because officers are busy and can’t wait around some place to document the disturbance first-hand, investigations can drag on for months as the residents affected by the nuisance collect their own evidence. Often, the result is a $100 to $150 fine imposed on the owner of the nuisance animal. But Gutierrez said that does not consistently solve the problem.

“We can write ticket after ticket on somebody, and they can go down and pay it at the courthouse, but there’s no abatement order,” Gutierrez said in a recent interview.

Matters are further complicated when the infraction is challenged in court, and a busy judge is forced to get to the bottom of the complaint, sometimes dismissing the case — and the fine — out of frustration, according to Gutierrez.

Under the ordinance, an administrative hearing officer — sometimes a practicing attorney with expertise in arbitration — will hear nuisance complaints and make a decision within days.

According to the measure, once Animal Services receive a nuisance complaint, the agency will issue a warning letter to the owner of the noisy dog. If the nuisance is reported again within 12 months of the warning, Animal Services will set a time for a hearing, involving a hearing officer, the owner of the problem animal, the complainant and any witnesses.

If the hearing officer determines an animal is a nuisance, an order will be issued telling the owner to abate the problem, according to the proposed ordinance.

Remedies might include obedience training, containing the animal within an enclosed space, such as a garage, restricting the amount of time the animal is allowed outside — or debarking the dog so it doesn’t vocalize beyond a whisper.

If an owner fails to follow the county’s order within 10 days, civil penalties can be imposed, according to the ordinance. Fines will start at $100. A second violation of the abatement order within 12 months would result in a $200 fine, and for every subsequent violation, dog owners will be fined $500.

“People start to stop and take notice at that point,” said Gutierrez.

She said the ordinance mirrors how the city of Riverside handles noisy animal complaints, “which has worked really, really well.”

The measure will take effect in 30 days.

3blues
06-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Aloha,

dingoridge has his number, he is a retired Lt Col, USMC and works on base, which is 200 yds from us. He has "mentioned" his neighbors noisey granddaughter, my back neighbors 3 year old son's crying(once, which I barely heard) etc.

At the moment moving is Not an option. We can't afford it. It cost us Over $850K to get here and we have borrowed to the limit. It's a really nice place compared to where we came from(drug dealers, pimps, homeless, bad kids etc) We thought it was "dog friendly" because when we can to look at the place, we heard several dogs barking and saw several being walked in front. I have identified at least a dozen other dogs who IMO bark more than ours. Our present back yard is over half the size of our former home entire property and the "kids" love it. Here I room to throw a ball and play with the kids. I think he resents that I play with the kids too. He even researched the ACD breed and made a comment hinting that we shouldn't have such dogs in this neighborhood because of their energy level.

Here in Hawaii, doesn't take much to make a complaint, justified or not, thanks to liberal laws.

As I said earlier, his dog barks and has set our dogs off on several instances, which he denys. His dog is perfect.......


What a beautiful place you have! I love your yard. If you ignore him does that help any? I guess he makes that hard to do. Maybe just don't talk to him. I knew a Lt. Col. in the USMC but he was retired by that point & was a very nice guy. Too bad you couldn't have the same luck.

Maybe set up a video camera or a cheap video surveillance camera and record when his dog starts barking. If you can I'd try to keep a video camera handy with this guy. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with someone like this. Hang in there. :thumb_yello:

AussieMama
06-21-2009, 09:28 PM
I would either move or surrender my dog to a rescue so that it would not be at risk of being euthanized or de-barked due to a court order. I would live in my car before I de-barked or euth'd my dogs. I can't even imagine de-barking a dog. That is just SICK.

If you tried to get revenge by video taping his dog barking, you would be punishing his dog, not him. I would be this guy's worst nightmare. He would come home to find his house smoldering in ruin.

Beth99
06-21-2009, 10:19 PM
This guy obviously has some control issues. I would definitely do some videotaping, with sound, to prove, as best you can, that his dog barks too and is part of the problem. I would also video the other dogs in the neighborhood barking. I would do this in advance of this issue escalating, so that you have a good defense if he pushes the situation. I would not necessarily hide the fact that you are documenting the situation. I don't know what your legal rights are about his looking over your fence, but I would also investigate that, with an attorney if need be.

I would also not leave the dogs unattended in the backyard and I would also inspect the yard before letting them out. You never know what this guy might throw into the yard if he feels he's being backed into a corner and losing his control of the situation.

Either way, conflicts with neighbors is definitely not fun.

autiger23
06-21-2009, 10:39 PM
I think you should talk to the other dog owners in your neighborhood. If he's coming after your dogs, theirs are very likely to be next. If you all got together and lodged a complaint about him harassing you, it could be a different story. Many voices will be heard better than one. Maybe you can make those liberal laws work for you. I'd feel the neighbors out and see what you could do in that vein. And definitely get some video of his dog barking while yours are in your house, other dogs barking (you could always go to the court and say that he was really hearing other people's dogs barking- his word against yours if the cops aren't coming out) and make sure you have the time stamp turned on the video camera.

3blues
06-22-2009, 01:23 AM
Autiger & Beth make very good points. No you don't want any more trouble with this guy. And I would definitely inspect my yard everytime I let the dogs out. But to protect yourself & your dogs, I would document everything he does. Isn't looking over someone's fence like that considered a "peeping tom?"

You might indeed want to talk to a lawyer ahead of time to find out your rights. The more neighbors you have with you on this the better your voices will be heard if needed. :)

I understand bad neighbors but fortunately haven't had to deal with them to this extent. We have one near our house that gave us some grief about 2 yrs. ago. They are one of only 2 or 3 neighbors in the whole neighborhood that don't have dogs. But they have children & I heard the mother screaming at her kids outside one day. So I said, out loud, "wow she's screaming at her kids like that & they have the nerve to complain about barking dogs? I wonder what social services would think about that?" I haven't heard another word from them about my dogs. :naughty:

Mind you now I am not advocating anything of the sort with your neighbor, just to clarify. Your neighbor is a totally different sort of person. I wish I could come help you though with this. I know how frustrated you are with this guy. Wish I could do something more to help you. :)

YogiBear
06-22-2009, 09:19 PM
Maybe suggest to your neighbor he might be happier back on the mainland...


Rick:paw:
Personally I've come to the conclusion with all his complaining about various noises in the neighborhood that bother him from dogs barking and kids crying/playing, traffic noise, or you name it that he needs to live in a morgue where he has total peace and quiet. When he complains you just cant believe someone could find so many ridulous things to complain about and then you realize your mouth is probably hanging open in disbelief. Every time we talk to him he has more examples of noises that he wants to know if we heard too and to whine about. He always says his dog does NOT bark but we've literally been talking to him on his property at least on 3 occasions where the dog did bark. And he'll deny it! Bottom line is the guy is a complainer and whiner. That coupled w/ his military no nonsense background does not make him any fun to deal with. All the military comments made justly apply. Dont get us wrong we are very patriotic but if you retire from the military and live amongst civilians you need to adjust and not be telling or demanding to your neighbors how long their grass should be etc. The kicker is he doesnt complain about the dogs barking during the night because they seldom do unless there is a huha going on outside - but during the day on occasion. A yip here or yap, yap there far and few between. There are at least 10-13 dogs surrounding us that bark much more but he doesnt seem to hear them. Some of them bark 1/2 hr to 1 hr at a crack. I think because he is use to them he tunes them out. I think because we're the newbies the noises are new and noticable to him and we're new so he wants to jerk our chain. :fryingpan:
Mrs YB

Brunella
06-23-2009, 08:46 PM
CattyBossDog, I'm sorry to say that I worked as a paralegal for nine years...it is not unheard of for a judge to order something as horrifying as de-barking or PTS. I'm certain that if I still had access to the many search sources I used to have access to I could provide you with actual references. It is a sad state of affairs and many local judges think they are doing a GOOD thing by giving the owner and the whiner an option.

I live in a neighborhood of animal lovers (THANK DOG FOR THAT) and we just think that the sound of barking dogs is the music of the morning. I wish that on all of us but it just doesn't seem to happen.

ACDonMyMind
06-24-2009, 10:44 AM
This might be difficult or even outright impossible, but I find it to be harder to be angry with or complain about people that I am friendly with, people I like or who just do generrally nice things. so: is it possible for you to turn everything around by inviting the man and his family if he has one over for lunch or dinner, kind of be friendly with him? If he sees you as a friend and allie, maybe he wont be so quick to complain about you. Find something you might have in common, perhaps gardening, and complement on his nice flowers and how does he manage to make them grow to be so beautiful? It might work?

littleroads
06-24-2009, 11:56 AM
Also, it could very well be that if he is a veteran and has seen combat, that he may be very sensitive to noises that wouldn't bother most people.

You could invite him over for dinner and a heart-to-heart if you think it might help. At least then you could say you tried EVERYTHING. :)

YogiBear
06-24-2009, 02:42 PM
Aloha,

He mentioned a 3 year old boy behind US crying. I barely heard him, Mrs YB did, said he might be sick. So what, sick kids cry, they aren't happy. Didn't bother us in the least. We know he's there and Mom is expecting #2 on Sept 24. My B'day is the 21 so I'm wondering how close #2 will be. If born on same day as me, does that make me an "Uncle"? I spoke with her yesterday(gave her mangos from our tree) and asked in passing if our dog's barking were a problem and she said No, there are others that are worse.
He also complained about the neighbor directly behind him. They have a little girl that's Very Vocal(yelling and screaming a lot). We can hear her too, again so what. Kids do that a lot, her maybe more than usual, but nothing we're going to get upset about. Doesn't bother our TV watching.

Spoke with another dog owner from across the street down the block. She has 4 GSD and she admits that they do bark. She has recieved no complaints.

I will be talking with owners of other dogs in the area and see if he has complained to them and how they handled him.

The bark stop collars seem to be working, so far.

Got to remember, these dogs have a high tolerance for pain AND they learn very quickly. Good thing I give them a Tasty treat when I put the collar(s) on/off. So they wait their turn to get them put on/off. Don't want them to associate unpleasnt things to the collars going on/off.
We re-enforce the collars when they bark or stop with the appropriate commands.

YogiBear
06-24-2009, 03:03 PM
Good thoughts but I think at this point we are both very leary of having him come onto our property. We don't want him to find more reasons to complain than he already has. Part of the concern is the dog pack behavior - we understand it - he won't. He only has one dog. Ours have "discussions" once in a while that he calls frenzies where the 2 alphas "talk" to each other much like a married couple having a talk. It lasts a minute or two. We find it entertaining and he obviously thinks they're fighting. I dont think no matter what we say he'll ever get some of the behavior that we all on this forum have come to understand and love. That said we have had a talk w/ him and his wife and we're all ok w/ each other for now. We hope it'll continue. Perhaps down the line we'll be fortunate enough that he'll grow to like us and we can become friends. For now we want to keep him at a safe distance since he seems like such a whiner. He'd probably have fits about what antics our dogs do some days so for now we figure it's best to keep him away. He doesnt seem like the kind of guy that can laugh at situations or be ok cuz the dog chewed up something. I dont think he understands dogs at all and lets face it ACDs are in a class of their own in some catagories but then again that's why we all love them! Mrs YB

3blues
06-25-2009, 02:19 AM
Good thoughts but I think at this point we are both very leary of having him come onto our property. We don't want him to find more reasons to complain than he already has. Part of the concern is the dog pack behavior - we understand it - he won't. He only has one dog. Ours have "discussions" once in a while that he calls frenzies where the 2 alphas "talk" to each other much like a married couple having a talk. It lasts a minute or two. We find it entertaining and he obviously thinks they're fighting. I dont think no matter what we say he'll ever get some of the behavior that we all on this forum have come to understand and love. That said we have had a talk w/ him and his wife and we're all ok w/ each other for now. We hope it'll continue. Perhaps down the line we'll be fortunate enough that he'll grow to like us and we can become friends. For now we want to keep him at a safe distance since he seems like such a whiner. He'd probably have fits about what antics our dogs do some days so for now we figure it's best to keep him away. He doesnt seem like the kind of guy that can laugh at situations or be ok cuz the dog chewed up something. I dont think he understands dogs at all and lets face it ACDs are in a class of their own in some catagories but then again that's why we all love them! Mrs YB

I agree Mrs. YB. I think you're right to keep him out of your house & no he wouldn't understand ACD's the way we all do. I'm glad you have all gotten things sort of worked out for now. Hope things remain calm & quiet for you.

We had a neighbor several years back, that lived 2 houses down from us. We would smile and wave when we saw him. In 7 years he never once waved or smiled back at us. It became a challenge to us to try & break that cycle but it never happened. He also had dogs but apparently he didn't care for his neighbors. The guy lived with his mother & had the entire property fenced in with 10 ft chain link. Some neighbors just don't wish to be neighborly.